On ambition after kids
Talking toddlers, co-parenting and the power of optimism with Sharmaine Lovegrove
Should you ever take a toddler on a holiday? Sharmaine Lovegrove – the co-founder, publisher and managing director of the London publishing house Dialogue Books – thinks not.
I didn’t expect to ponder this question when I contacted Sharmaine to ask her about career and ambition and how she manages to be a powerhouse in her industry while bringing up kids in Berlin – but our conversation turned out to be broad and expansive, touching on the trickiness of toddlers and the surprising benefits of breaking up with the father of your children.
It was fascinating to hear how the mother-of-three – she has a 12-year-old son and two-year-old twin daughters – has developed her outlook on parenting over the years, and how moving away from the 9-5 and the nuclear family has allowed her to feel fulfilled, both personally and professionally.
Our conversation is condensed and edited below – and I hope that you’ll find it as interesting as I did.
Lynn Enright: When I had my daughter, I feel like lots of things coincided that meant my ambition was put on hold or quelled, or I couldn't make space for it, or something. So I wanted to think about ambition and motherhood for this newsletter. I thought about you because you had your twin daughters around the same time and it seemed to me that your ambition was not quelled, and that your career was not halted in any way. And I wanted to ask you about that and how much of that was intentional or how much of that you fought for. And what did it feel to achieve those things while having to rear not just one but two small kids?
Sharmaine Lovegrove: I basically spoke to my CEO about becoming a division and a managing director on the Thursday before the Monday that I had the twins. Someone put a nugget in my head, two weeks before. And then once something's in my head, I just have to do it. There's just like no other way. If I have an idea, I'm just going to run with it, that’s just my personality type. And so because it was in my head, and then we had this conversation, and we were all at home and I was just about to have the babies, then it made sense. I didn't have to fight for it.
There were loads and loads of unknowns and the prospect of coming back [from maternity leave] to a massive challenge was just really interesting to me. And I think because I'm very secure in my parenthood – and how I see my children, how I position them in respect to my work – I just didn't have any and still don't actually have any issue of, What is my relationship to them to and what is my relationship to my work, even though my work takes me away from them?
LE: I guess there are a couple of things to explore there – one, about the relationship to your kids. It would be interesting to talk about that and then there's the practical stuff of what allows you to do that. So in terms of the relationship, have you always felt like that?
SL: I think there are a lot of people who see their child as a projection of them. And there's a lot of ego involved in parenthood, and the whole idea of, They’ll really miss me. They need me! And I’m like, Do they?
I was raised by my whole family, so I had my mum, and my stepdad from when I was one, and then I had my grandparents, and then I had my dad's family and all of my uncles and aunts and all of my cousins. I was raised in this very communal way in London. And so I've been pretty astounded by what white motherhood looks like, which is just so intensely individualised, so intensely, like, My child is a reflection of me and when they cry, I cry. I’m just like, What the fuck are you talking about? Your child does not reflect you, your child is is their own person. And I think that there's so much focus on birth and babyhood – and there's not that much focus on parenthood, and what it means to raise an adult in our society. There's a lot of focus on making sure that things are perfect – but what kind of human are you then trying to raise? Because what does perfection mean? One, it's impossible to get to, and two, having resilience or going through things is not a bad thing with children.
I've been pretty secure in how I raise my children, and the fact that they don't need to spend all their time with me. Because I think they need to develop, they have their own lives.
Right now, they’re at Kita [nursery] all day, and then they have an au pair, and then they'll come back and then we'll play, and then they'll have dinner, and then they'll go to bed. All day, they have different people and then at some point they'll go to school, and then they'll go to university, and what you hope is that they'll be able to come back and sit at the table with you and have conversations.
And you hope that the time that you have with them will give them the broadest life with a huge amount of capability and a massive amount of opportunity.
One summer, maybe two summers ago, I was watching people on Twitter complaining about how awful it is to take their kids on holiday. And I'm like, But whose idea is it to take kids on holiday? Why would you want that? Why are you taking your kids on holiday? It's not holiday with a one-year-old.
I went to Jamaica with my children on parental leave between six and nine months and basically I have not travelled with them again, because I know it's difficult for them. They don't like it. I won't take them anywhere. They don't need a holiday. I need a holiday.
LE: That is so interesting. And was this approach to childrearing something you had thought about prior to having children or is it instinctual? Or how did you come to thinking like this?
SL: I had my first child when I was 30. And I was living in Berlin with my then partner, now ex. We're both British and we didn't have any family around so that gave us a lot of freedom to work stuff out. Our friends our age didn't have kids. We didn't have any family around us. There weren't that many books. People weren't on Instagram talking about it. There wasn't any noise around how to raise a child. It was like, we're not German, and we're British in a different place. We’re a mixed-race, bilingual, multicultural family – so what do you take from Britain, Jamaica and Germany and then also just ourselves? A lot of it was instinct, and then other things were financial, but I just knew there were things that I didn't want as a parent.
I just knew that keeping it really simple was best for the the child. Like one thing a day: if you’re going to go on playdates, go on one playdate a day. Babies don't need to go to galleries because it's annoying for everybody. It's annoying for the people in the gallery, it’s annoying for the child because they can't touch anything. Who's having fun here? And do you honestly think that if you don't do this, your child will not be interesting? Like how did we get here? Because all the things that we do with our kids are not things that our parents did. My parents were not taking me to galleries when I was two years old. They just didn't do that. I wasn't going to restaurants every week. I wasn't going on a holiday every summer in that way.
And then how did I turn out? I work in publishing, and I'm working with books. This is fucking great. How did I get here? Not from doing things that would make my child uncomfortable or me uncomfortable or other people uncomfortable?
LE: So I guess what you're saying is that simplicity in your parenting and keeping things relatively simple in that realm, allowed you to have this fuller life perhaps. If you keep parenting relatively simple, then you can maybe do more with other parts of your life. Because I wanted to ask you about how you do it. You travel and work and have this life that takes you between various cities, while also making sure everybody eats their dinner and has clean clothes for school or nursery. How does that work practically?
SL: For me, simplicity is the key. It's understanding how explosive all of their emotions and experiences are, and that it can be really overwhelming, especially to toddlers. So just keeping it contained is a really key part of my parenting outlook.
LE: I think that all sounds really sensible. You sound like somebody who is very confident in your decisions. Obviously you have to be very confident in your decisions at work but you sound confident in your parenting, too. Sometimes I think parenthood can make even confident people feel less confident – but it doesn't feel like it did that to you.
SL: I always wanted to be a parent, I love being a parent, but I'm just not obsessed about some parts of it. I'm really into children and young adults and adults. But I am not into toddlers at all. I like nought to one and I like three onwards. But this bit, I mean at the moment, I am not that into it. Because it's so hard for them. There's just so much going on and they can't regulate anything. It’s so frustrating because they can see things but they can't do it. And it's messy for them. So I think what they need is the space to explore and experiment. And what you need as a parent is as much help and input as you can get to make the day for them and yourself bearable, otherwise you just lose your mind.
I don’t know how anyone spends all day with kids – I couldn't do that, I couldn’t be a nursery teacher. I love being a parent, but this bit is not really my bit. In the grand scheme of a whole life, the fact that two years is not the bit that I'm the most interested in is okay. I don't feel any guilt because I’m being honest and I don't feel any guilt about the other things that I need to do because I'm not projecting myself onto them.
I’m not, Oh, if I'm not there, playing Lego with them, then are they really going to learn how to build Lego? Are they going to have their fine motor skills? Like, yes they are because I can provide everything that they need to be able to do those things. I don't have to do all of it with them. And I think having input from other people makes for a more engaging, open, resilient, interesting, connected, communicative person.
When I see kids who can’t be without their parent, it's often because the parent can't be without them. Children pick up on your feelings in a way that I don't think a lot of people really understand. And so if you show them anxiety, they will try and protect you.
So that brings me to the other side of it. My ex and I split up last year and in September, we started nesting. So the children stayed in one place and we basically came back into the family home at different times. And I have to say that being separated is an absolute gift to parenthood because you get to have your children and have 100% of the relationship, but then you have 50% of your time back. And that is just magic. It's just magic.
I feel so lucky. I have my three children and I have my work – I can go to work. And one thing that I noticed is that as soon as we separated, people stopped asking me if I felt guilty about not being with my children.
When I used to go to work, when my ex and I were still together, that was an endless question. It was so annoying. I used to get so angry. People came up to me – and I would be going into a board meeting. I'm in work mode. I'm in London. I'm in my office mode, right? And they're like, Do you miss the twins? Well no, I don't miss them. Because I know where they are, I know what they're doing. And I know that they're totally fine. And I know when I'm going to see them again, you know, and I also know what I'm doing.
People would ask such stupid questions like, Do you bring them with you when you travel? And I'm like, Are you joking? Do I bring three children to London to come to work? How would that work? Tell me, how would that work? I'd have to get two sets of nurseries, two sets of schools, two four-bedroom houses. And why? So that I could then do drop-off and pick-up. For what? To what end? The unthinking questions towards parents are just relentless, insulting, and short sighted – and it makes me so angry. I'm like come on, be better.
LE: Yeah, I wonder what that is. Because I know people who haven't had a babysitter. Their kids are at school and they’ve never had a babysitter and gone out. And I think they're sensible people, but they haven’t done that. So I think for some people… well they’re projecting their fears and anxieties about their parenting onto you.
SL: Yeah – what you don't need in your working day is somebody projecting onto you their own fears about parenthood. I'm like, You know what, don’t! What if I was feeling sad about it? Or ambivalent or apprehensive? If I was feeling shit about leaving and feeling guilt? I’m just walking from the toilet to a board meeting – hashtag trigger warning. Do you know what I mean? Give me a trigger warning.
But no, I don't feel guilty. Like, do I feel guilty that I'm earning money and giving my kids a really great life? Do I feel guilty that I've made political and cultural decisions for them to live in one of the best cities in Europe?
LE: Yeah, I guess maybe there is a short sightedness – maybe linked to sexism – about what constitutes a good life for for a child. We have a really narrow view of what constitutes a good life for toddlers. But I don’t understand how anyone could think that I, as one person, can give my child everything she needs. She gets so much from the team of people at nursery, and her peers and the facilities. And then when I do hang out with her, I have a lot of energy: we rarely watch TV and don’t use screens, because I have energy – because I wasn’t with her 24/7 during the week. The time that I spend with her, I can be quite hands-on because it's not so constant. But it is interesting to think about how the childcare crisis is linked to these quite conservative notions of who should be looking after a child and whose job that is.
SL: It is just so unthinking – and the questions are just ridiculous. Because you're asking me about my private life and if you feel that you need to ask me about my private life, the very least you can do is come with an actual engaging, interesting, pragmatic question, rather than one that is loaded with your own anxiety and guilt. I'm not walking around the office asking random people how they raise their kids. I don't really care. What I care about is that I work somewhere where we have policies that allow for flexibility in how we work, that we're able to work how we want and live how we want, and the combined outcome of that is that we're actually doing great work.
When I’m in Berlin, I work from home so when the kids come home, they have an au pair – but I can see them for a hug or a cuddle. We can have a hot chocolate or take a walk. I can find snippets because I have that flexibility. That’s different than if you’re commuting and you’ve got to pick them up and do dinner, bath, bed in two hours.
I spend a lot of time with them in the mornings too, as we are not rushing out the door.
LE: Yeah, that makes sense. Do you think that – as somebody who leads a big team and and heads up this division – there are ways that you can think in a different way to help people parent and pursue their ambitions and pursue that full life that I was talking about?
SL: I don't want to say that everyone should have kids and then get separated, but I definitely feel like the 50-50 thing is amazing. It’s incredible, I love it so much. I had no idea it would be so good. I cherish the time with my children even more: the quality of our lives and the stuff that we do together is even more intentional. And then, when I'm not with them, I have a lot of time by myself. So I can focus on work and I get to chill. I can stay in bed or hang out with friends.
So I'm not going to advocate that people separate… but it is pretty amazing. Because my ex and I were together for a really long time, I really trust him. I don’t have to talk to him about parenting, we raised a kid together for 12 years, so we know how we do it. There’s nothing that he knows that I don’t know. We trust each other implicitly.
So in terms of thinking about my team and what they could learn, I think it's about not putting too much pressure on yourself, not thinking there’s a perfect way to parent. Listen to your instincts – and listen to each other.
There are certain instincts that I have – but I don't think that I do everything better. And I think we need to have that generosity as a birthing parent because that generosity allows not only the additional parent or guardian, but also other people in society to look after our kids.
LE: That's kind of the theme of this chat we’re having, I think. When I asked you what has allowed you to do these things in your career, it’s about trusting other people to be able to care for your child. And I suppose that also means moving away from the confines of a nuclear family, where everybody gets up at 7am and goes to nursery and work. You find freedom in thinking about work and family in slightly different ways. The nine-to-five and the nuclear family aren't the things that have allowed you to flourish.
SL: Yeah, I actually tried that at one stage, when we lived in London, and I found it very hard. You know that thing of getting calls from the nursery as you’re going into a meeting, and getting onto a train with a bunch of other parents who feel pissed off. There was no flexibility and it felt very relentless. I didn’t feel inspired.
LE: I think it's interesting that everything you've said about getting to the top of your profession has been about a search for freedom, as much as climbing any sort of ranks or ladder.
SL: 100%. My ambition doesn't work in a linear way where I'm trying to get to the next step. My career has been about what needs to be done and what can I do. I love to innovate: where is the gap and what do I want to do with it? That’s what my ambition is about, rather than a pay check or a title. And that’s how I think about parenthood too. How am I part of their narrative of childhood to adulthood, and how can I give them the space to create their own path?
LE: I always end the interviews by asking how people are doing: so how are you doing today and how is your parenting and your life working out for you today?
SL: So today was really lovely because it was the second time that the kids had been at my new place and they were so excited to come back. They were, It's mama's house, it’s mama's house. So they’re enjoying seeing their toys and their beds. They’re very happy children.
I did the calendar with my ex, for the rest of the year, which can be very fraught on the phone or text – but sitting down together and plotting everything out is great. So I feel incredibly positive about the decisions that we've made and the positive impact that they have on our children. They are really happy, healthy children with a lot of opportunities. They’re fun, and they're interesting, and they're interested – all three of them, from the 12-year-old to the two-and-a-half-year-olds. So I am feeling really great and optimistic. There's no such thing as perfection but being happy is pretty close to it.
LE: Wow. That's such a lovely thing to hear. It feels to me, having spoken to you for an hour now, that your positivity is something that is very key to your ambition and forward motion and success.
SL: We have one life, you know, and last year, and the year before, I had so many people that died. I'd never had anyone die and then suddenly a lot of people around me died. And I was just like, I have this one life, I need to choose happy. And I didn't realise I was unhappy in my relationship, but I now know that I was really unhappy – but because my life is so full, and I'm so optimistic, there were things that I didn't know.
So I've done a lot of work, a lot of therapy, I've done a lot of reading, I've done a lot of reflection. I feel hugely privileged to be a Black woman and to be able to tap into the cultural side of that, to be able to call upon it when it was needed. We have a natural language that comes from enslaved peoples around the abundance and joy of our lives, given the hardships. I am so aware that I live in a patriarchal, white-supremacist, racist society in Europe – but I get to do something where I'm actually actively trying to change that through the literature that we publish. And then I get to raise these children in a way that has a global perspective, with huge amounts of influences.
Thanks for reading How’s Everyone Doing? As ever, if you are a paying subscriber - extra thanks! Sorry about the typos. See you next month. xx